EU referendum debate recap: Remain and Leave slug it out in ITV Brexit Q&A as Boris Johnson attacked
The Remain and Leave camps went head-to-head on Thursday night (9 June) as the referendum draws close over the pros and cons leaving the European Union.
Boris Johnson was joined by fellow Brexiters Andrea Leadsom and Gisela Stuart, from Vote Leave, while SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon teamed up with Labour's Angela Eagle and the energy secretary Amber Rudd from the Remain campaign.
The six appeared on ITV's two-hour debate between 8 and 10pm, moderated by journalist Julie Etchingham. Last time, David Cameron and Nigel Farage took part in a 60-minute Q&A session that played out to an average of four millions viewers.
IBTimes UK's senior politics reporter Ian Silvera provided analysis from the Spin Room in Westminster.
And finally...
Leadsom: Bright future awaits us if we take back control...We will once again have democracy, control over borders and who comes into this country...EU is yesterday's game, with heart and head I urge you to take back control.
Rudd: Complete fantasy from Leave reminds me of Wizard of Oz - when you pull back curtain there is nothing there...There are 14 days to go, we have strong place in Europe.
Stuart: This is our last chance to take back control. If you would not vote now to join, vote to leave. We don't have to trade between trade and democracy...A vote to remain is dangerous...I am an immigrant and I would not dream of talking down this country.
Sturgeon: We have gained longest period of peace, largest single market, workers' rights, freedom for all of us to travel in Europe, ability to work together on issues like climate change...Lets keep hold of all these gains.
Boris: Whole campaign between Leave - offering hope - and Remain - that offers fear...We are a great country...We say we can take back control of money, tax, trade, borders and democracy.
Eagle: Experts say leaving will damage economy and cost jobs...Those of you at home who have suffered from cuts, this is your chance to give the Tories a bloody nose.
On nature of EU campaign...
Boris: They want United states of Europe. EU had its purpose once, it's time to come out...The reality is that whenever Brussels asks for money who have had to cough it up...The better we do the more we pay in...We have no protection from plans to go ahead with harmonising law and they will take us further and further into United states of Europe...We will be sucked into bailouts to keep Euro together...If we come out there is tariff free zone from Iceland to Russia, we are part of that.
Sturgeon: Apply your own common sense and your common sense will say remain...Every single country has a veto over Turkey joining EU...Norway and Switzerland pay into EU and have to abide by rules...We're in modern world, surely it's better for independent nations to work together...
Leadsom: We speak world's international, language, part of Commonwealth of 2.3bn consumers...the future when we vote to leave is very bright indeed...We do not control amount of money EU requires of us...
Eagle: This is a decision about jobs, workers' rights and that's why I've been concerned about myths from Leave campaign. It's not project fear to ask for answers from Leave about what future may look like...We are not in Schengen area and we can have best of both worlds...
Stuart: Status quo is not on the ballot paper...I think if you want to be stronger and safer you take control and vote leave...
Rudd: If you unpick it you have a free market. No tariffs, no costs. That means lower prices, more jobs and more money to spend on public services...
Chuka Umunna has responded to Boris Johnson's claim a majority of UK law is shaped in Brussels:
The facts Boris: in the last parliament just 4 out of 121 Acts of Parliament were passed to exclusively implement EU law #ITVEURef
— Chuka Umunna (@ChukaUmunna) June 9, 2016
On sovereignty...
Sturgeon: Independent nations need to work together, that's what I stand for...What kind of dreadful message would it send if we cut ourselves off...We won't meet climate change targets unless we work together...independence and interdependence are two sides of the same coin in the modern world...I am not betraying anyone when I say I want Scotland to be an independent country
Leadsom: You need to be able to sack us. Problem with being in EU is that that can't happen. You can't get rid of them...We are unable to get rid of VAT on fuel bills because of EU.
Eagle: To me it means having confidence to project values in international world. Achieve more working together...If we came out of EU, pension funds would still want to invest in EU...Are we going to turn our backs on the rest of the world
Stuart: To me the essence is you can get rid of us. But in current structure of EU a whole lot of decisions are made without that ability...Of course we will still be part of the organisations like the UN and the Security Council
Rudd: At Paris summit the UK was leading EU...we don't want to tackle air pollution on our own because it is an international problem
Boris: We can have that influence and more if we come out of the EU. No one else in the world is there a fusing of nations like this...We you look at VW scandal that was classic collusion between EU, lobbyists and car manufacturers - a disaster caused by a lack of democracy...
Whoops
"Have we just witness the first big gaffe of ITV's EU referendum debate? Angela Eagle, the shadow business secretary, cited Barbara Castle as a champion of women's and workers' rights. But wait...Castle, a Labour MP, campaigned alongside Tony Benn to quit the EEC, a precursor to the EU, in 1975." - IBTimes UK's Ian Silvera
On workers' rights
Stuart: EU is of Eurozone which is producing unemployment. Rights meaningless without a job
Eagle: People more likely to have a job in the EU. Why trade unions are campaigning to remain
I've sat on council of ministers and I've made good deal by compromise
We would not have European Arrest Warrant without EU
Boris: We have said we want to protect the rights of workers. Our courts and parliament uphold rights of women and everyone at work.
Our side is determined to protect rights of workers...Does Remain accept all 2,000 regualtions from Brussels?
Sturgeon: Boris is only interested in David Cameron's job
Rudd: When we talk about Farage, would we want him to stand up for women's rights?
Leadsom: This is the lowest of the low. We are trying to give sensible information. Sturgeon wants to stay so EU can overrule a democratically elected government
Stuart: What tells you that European Commission will be continuous guardians of women's rights
Half-time analysis
Here's what IBTimes UK's Ian Silvera makes of things so far:
The two teams are attempting to link the different issues back to their strongest points. For Leave, that's immigration. For Remain, that's the economy.
Remain say a strong NHS requires a strong economy, while Leave warn rising net migration levels are putting lots of pressure on the health service.
Rudd: We need to stay in the EU to enable a strong economy that can fund a strong EU
Sturgeon: I think Remain will be better for NHS. More likely to be treated by an immigrant than you are to be led next to one on a hospital bed
Boris: GPs told me pressure from EU accession countries. Remain have no answer to when the migratory crisis gets worse
Eagle: A lot of pressure comes from disastrous top-down reorganisation from the last government
Rudd: Undecided should look to experts and in the case of the NHS they say we should remain
Sturgeon: Do not trust a word Boris Johnson says about the NHS. The fact that UK government has cut has is not the fault of the EU or migrants
Leadsom: If we take back control we will have the skills and take a huge slug of money back
Boris: No one can say EU is an economic nirvana...During ambulance crisis there were not enough paramedics in London who could speak good enough English.
Eagle: I never thought I would say this but I agree with John Major
Sturgeon: If you're a nurse in the NHS you get paid holidays, maternity leave - these are valuable workers' rights
Eagle: Our health service would not work without migrants
Leadsom: Let's go back to money. ONS very clear - £10.1bn goes to the EU for what we get absolutely nothing back
Vote Leave has sent in some reaction, the main points of which are:
- The SNP has admitted the UK could succeed outside the EU
- Nicola Sturgeon opposed a referendum on the EU
- The IN campaign used to admit you could control immigration without harming the economy
- The Head of the In campaign has admitted there is no risk in leaving
- Three million jobs are not at risk
Eagle: 9/10 economists have predicted if we leave there will be another recession
Boris: Lord Rose said nothing much would happen if we left EU. I'm inclined to believe PM before project fear kicked in who said UK could prosper
Sturgeon: Remain would mean access to market of 500m, not 65m. It makes sense to stay
Stuart: We will end up having to pay for bailouts of ailing countries if we remain. The UK is world's fifth largest economy and we will do better if we leave
Rudd: Jobs are central to this and small businesses matter. 9/10 experts and Mark Carney form consensus: it is better to remain
Stuart: Experts are the voters and Anthony Bamford was right today
Sturgeon: I don't fancy the prospect of a future of Boris as PM...
Boris: In last 20 years 27 non-EU independent countries did better at exporting services into the single market than the UK
Leadsom: 80% of world's economies are out of the single market and they are some of the fastest growing in the world
Rudd: The reason why Leave don't like experts is because they don't have any
Sturgeon: Boris says we will stay in the single market, says who? Leave is perpetuating a lie and it is not on
Stuart: Trade will go on. We are fifth largest economy
Rudd: It takes 2-3 years to execute trade deals. We need to be at the front of the queue. We should be leading, not leaving
Eagle: They want to take hue risks with millions of people's jobs. You only care about one job, your next one
Well, that was heated. Rudd, Sturgeon and Eagle going for Boris and his bus #ITVEURef
— Ian Silvera (@ianjsilvera) June 9, 2016
Eagle: Government has got to pull up their socks to alleviate pressures up and down the country
Boris: 10% growth in immigration = a 2% hit on wages
Rudd: You don't save money by leaving the EU
Eagle: It does not cost £350m to be member of the EU and you've emblazoned that across your bus. TUC says we get £10 for every £1 we put into the EU
Sturgeon: Boris, who said he wanted to charge for using the NHS now defending it
Eagle: Get that lie off your bus!
Leadsom: That 350m a week is what the ONS says is due to the EU. EU controls rebate and subsidies and £10bn goes to EU that we never see again
Rudd: Bus is pure fantasy
Boris: We are talking about cold, hard cash
Etchingham: I am going to draw a line!
Phew, thanks Julie!
Rudd: There is no silver bullet to immigration
Boris: 10,000s immigration is impossible to do in the EU. 77,000 people came to the UK last year without a job.
Sturgeon: Open inclusive economies tend to be stronger economies
Stuart: points system means you have control. What we have now is mainland EU of 500m workers who have right to come here
Eagle: Boris voted with Conservatives to have huge cuts and that is where huge pressure is coming from
Quick preview from the Spin Room by pro-EU environment secretary Liz Trust
"I think David Cameron put across a very strongly why staying in the EU is vital for our economic future and the future of our children and that's what I'm expecting more of tonight because that's a core concern for the people who are voting in this referendum."
What about the claims the Remain campaign have been scaremongering?
"Well, if you look at what economists are saying, 90% of economists are saying that it would be economic damaging if we were to leave the EU and it would have a real effect on people's incomes. I think it's absolutely right when people go into that polling station that they understand that."
After IBTimes UK columnist James Bloodworth urged Labour to get the Remain vote out, former shadow business secretary Chuka Umunna was asked if the party is doing enough.
"Well, it's a team effort and Alan Johnson has led a great campaign and you have prominent Labour voices, not only on the front bench, but you've got people like Emma Reynolds, Yvette Cooper and myself who have been out a lot.
"The key priority for us, as a Labour campaign, is to make sure Labour voters know that the Labour Party is for In and why. I don't think anyone can say we've been shy in coming forward, we're here in the Spin Room tonight."
Asked if David Cameron's appearances on the campaign trail risked turning off Labour voters, Umunna added:
"The polls suggest that Labour voters don't necessarily ignore him, but the best people to make the case to Labour voters as to why we should stay In are Labour politicians and Labour people. That's what we are doing."
This was Nicola Sturgeon arriving at ITV studios earlier this evening:
Suited and booted, @NicolaSturgeon is #ITVEURef studio bound to make the #EUref case for #VoteRemain pic.twitter.com/rfkQ3lEKPW
— Peter Murrell (@PeterMurrell) June 9, 2016
Kate Hoey - one of Labour's leading Brexiters - is looking forward to the Leave participants making a better case than Nigel Farage managed on Tuesday.
She has also called "rubbish" Jeremy Corbyn's claims workers would lose rights if the UK left the EU.
Here's what she told IBTimes UK ahead of tonight's debate:
"I am looking forward to seeing the left-wing case [for Brexit] tonight. We are going to see Gisela Stuart [Labour MP and Vote Leave chair] very much in command of the left's view taking on Angela Eagle [Labour's pro-EU shadow business secretary].
" I think that's going to be quite an interesting contest and I'm really looking forward to the Leave campaign getting the opportunity, which they didn't get the other night because the interviewer didn't stop people interviewing Nigel [Farage], to get the hopeful case across."
Asked if people would lose workers' rights if the UK votes Leave at the referendum, she added:
"Rubbish, complete and utter rubbish. Every single right that we've got is enshrined in British law.
"The government would actually have to take them out, go to parliament and put through legislation, even this Conservative government is not going to do that.
"Ultimately, it's democracy – people can vote that government out, we can't vote the EU out and our rights here in the UK are much better than in many other EU countries because it's been won by the hard work and campaigning of trade unionists not by the EU."
Senior politics reporter Ian Silvera has made it into the Spin Room where he brings us this from SNP Europe spokesman in Westminster, Stephen Gethins:
"I think Nicola [Sturgeon] brings a very strong case of why we should remain in the EU. It's a case she's been making for a number of months now, which is that we are wealthier, it's better for our small businesses to be part of the EU, that it's fairer – if you think about the workers' rights that come from the EU – and that we are healthier and greener.
"That's very much the progressive case for remaining part of the EU and Nicola is a very strong advocate for that.
"What people want to hear is a positive case, they want to hear why we should remain part of the EU. I don't think Project Fear works and I think that's been shown. Nicola's very keen and she will show the very positive case I've just outlined as well."
He weighed in on the referendum debate over here, now Barack Obama has had the audacity to have his say on the US presidential election. He's backed former secretary of state Hilary Clinton over Bernie Sanders to go head to head against Donald Trump in the race for the White House in November.
Earlier today Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn and his deputy Tom Watson rolled in West Bromwich to take part in a community meeting at the Guru Har Rai Gurdwara Sahib temple.
The pair were on the Labour In campaign battle bus and were canvassing for votes and hope to persuade UK citizens to stay in the European Union. Corbyn's appearance came days after he warned leaving the EU would jeopardise workers' right.
The Leave team are on their way to the ITV debate...
Setting off on the @vote_leave bus for the #ITVEURef debate with the wonderful @GiselaStuart and @BorisJohnson pic.twitter.com/J2Dfl5ona8
— Andrea Leadsom MP (@andrealeadsom) June 9, 2016
It's been a busy day on the campaign trail with one defection and two former prime ministers joining forces. Here's a quick round-up of Thursday's developments:
- Sir John Major and Tony Blair warned how a Brexit threatened the existence of the UK
- Writing for IBTimes UK, Blair's former director of communications and strategy Alastair Campbell hailed the former prime ministers' joint intervention partnership
- Senior Conservative MP Sarah Wollaston defected from Vote Leave, accusing the Brexit group of "post-truth politics"
- Leave.EU was considering legal action over the decision to extend registration for EU referendum
Good evening and welcome to live coverage of the second ITV EU referendum debate. This is how tonight is going to work:
- The politicians will each in turn make short opening statements at the beginning of the programme and closing statements at the conclusion of the debate.
- During the two-hour live debate, politicians will address questions posed by the studio audience.
- The format will allow each politician to give a short uninterrupted answer to each question, before the floor is opened up to free flowing debate, moderated by Julie Etchingham.
You can also submit questions via debate@itv.com
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